Curse

countesscorpula · Apr 18, 2009, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Boycott is a strong word. I just simply can't ever see myself paying $10 to get less than half of what I'd get from buying an additional character slot... for the same price. Same price, less than half the value. Nope, doesn't make sense... unless it's for charity. Is it for charity? Does $5 dollars of every purchase go to Habitat for Humanity, to give real people a place to put there real life stuff? Then I might be interested. Otherwise I see such a purchase as literally throwing money away.

MithranArkanere · Apr 18, 2009, 05:20 AM // 05:20

We are not talking here about what is fair and what is not. But about how many people will get the slots with this price. Geting stuff for free is not 'fair', it may be great, cool and things like those, but not 'fair' unless it is given to compensate for something else.

They already know almost everything commented here and in other similar threads and sites. They checked the number of slots purchased and fansites to see if people would willingly buy storage, and if you read many thread, most people would accept to pay...

It's the bell curve of Gaussian function.
If the price is too low, a lot of people may buy the item, but they may be actually losing money.
If the price is to high, they will earn a lot from each article sold, but not many people will buy.
The perfect spot is the peak of the bell curve. The highest price most people will be willing to pay, to maximize the earnings.

If we use the poll as reference, 50% of the people won't pay for it.
They are out of the question, since they either don't need more storage or just want free stuff.
They are getting free stuff already, and any more free stuff will be welcomed, but we must also be reasonable and not ask to make everything free, because people have to pay bills.

From the other 50%, 25% will get it, and 25% may get it or not, and would probably get it if they were cheaper.

The only thing a little off here is the price. If the Xunlai tabs had 30 or 40 slots, the price won't be too much, since you'll be paying also for the luxury of not having to switch between characters or accounts.
But if the tabs have only 20 slots after the update, then they just went beyond the limit most people would find reasonable. I see that we are a little past the peak of the bell curve: price a little too high, and they will get to more customers and sell more by reducing it a little bit.
And yet, quite a lot of people will get them even if the price is for 20 slots, be sure of that.

In my case, I will wait until they make any kind of special offer, something like 'buy 4 slots and we give you a 5th' or 'get the 4 slots and we give you the Animal unlock pack" or "get 3 tabs plus the animal unlock pack and unlock the exclusive Moss spider and Devourer as pets in your menagerie" or something in the lines of that.

the pretender · Apr 18, 2009, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Dam, i'm just kinda surprise no one from ArenaNet has stuck their nose in here and replayed.

DreamWind · Apr 18, 2009, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

Vanity is the one of the rare rewards for playing Pve that one can measure against other players. There is little else.

Since when is PvE a measure against other players? Nevertheless...lets assume it is for the purposes of your point...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

If you put that up for sale, the game collapses for players who care about that part of the game. Skill unlocks and storage are completely invisible. How can they matter when you can't even tell if another player spent real money on them?

If you put storage or UAX up for sale, the game may collapse for those who don't buy them. If I don't have enough storage, it upsets me that others put down real money (that I may or may not have) to have more storage than me. If I don't have skills, it upsets me that others bought them (because everybody should have them). I don't think the gameplay should be changed by allowing people to spend real money to change it. You can't say storage is ok and vanity isn't...people care about different things. To me selling storage is MUCH worse than selling vanity, because it may directly affect gameplay and the vanity doesn't (at least not for me).

And the biggest point of all isn't being addressed...where does this end? This is a huge slippery slope. The only things people are saying is "it is optional deal with it" or "this thread should be locked". It amazes me how little actually gets discussed, and people wonder why the threads get so long. It is because people keep asking questions that aren't being answered.

One last thing...I keep seeing this about the market determining the value and Anet will lose money if the price is too high. Both are false. This is a win win for Anet regardless of whether we buy it or not. It is a no lose situation for Anet because either we buy and they make money or we don't buy and they lose nothing (short of the minimal cost it took to put it in the store). For this reason (and the fact that people are actually happy to be ripped off) makes it more likely that they will try selling various in game things through microtransactions in the future and in GW2.

upier · Apr 18, 2009, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Since when is PvE a measure against other players?

You seem to have failed to understand his point in your desire to throw in a "PvPers are superior".

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

And the biggest point of all isn't being addressed...where does this end? This is a huge slippery slope. The only things people are saying is "it is optional deal with it" or "this thread should be locked". It amazes me how little actually gets discussed, and people wonder why the threads get so long. It is because people keep asking questions that aren't being answered.

This thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10364879

Specifically:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

I don't understand these types of responses... you just got done saying you can already do it, but it's not easy to implement?

I realize I've never worked on the ANET backend, but, to me, this is a simple database update. How can changing a name of a character possibly be a difficult thing to add?

A lot of things are possible given enough resources and time. We have limits on resources and time and there are sometimes technical limitations. It might look easy to add on the surface, but a feature like this requires not just a lot of back end technical work, but also the consultation of people in other departments besides the ones that are responsible for programming, designing the user interface, etc. For example, adding a major feature like this would need to be discussed and get approval from decision-makers (executives) in the company.

Bolded the important part.

What seems to be the case here is that the guys at A.Net are aware of getting greedy on our asses and the potential result of that.
They seem to be aware of the fact that as soon as GW starts focusing on micro-transactions it loses it's niche and becomes just another micro-transactions-fuelled game out there. So no - I don't see this becoming much of an issue - because they seem to be choosing quite good options on what to sell in the store.
Personally, I'd probably add a few more.

DreamWind · Apr 18, 2009, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You seem to have failed to understand his point in your desire to throw in a "PvPers are superior".

He is trying to say it is ok to sell storage but not ok to sell vanity items. I am saying this is ridiculous. I also fail to see how you got "PvPers are superior" out of what I said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What seems to be the case here is that the guys at A.Net are aware of getting greedy on our asses and the potential result of that.
They seem to be aware of the fact that as soon as GW starts focusing on micro-transactions it loses it's niche and becomes just another micro-transactions-fuelled game out there. So no - I don't see this becoming much of an issue - because they seem to be choosing quite good options on what to sell in the store.
Personally, I'd probably add a few more.

The problem is Anet doesn't care because people are happily buying the ripoffs they put out. And what is "good options" to you? If they sold UAX, storage, character slots, vanity items, weapon and armor skins, etc etc in GW2 would that all be ok with you? Hell why not let us buy extra heroes, an auction house, a hairstylist, a name changer, etc etc. Again...where does it end? If they are selling storage, I see no reason why they can't sell everything else.

Empress Amarox · Apr 18, 2009, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by immortius

I notice the trolls enjoy ignoring the convenience side of the equation, because it complicates their arguments.

So, tell me... When did someone that disagrees with you suddenly become a "troll?"

Also, I and many others have countered the convenience arguments, of which, fanboys are ignoring. In fact, numerous times. I feel it's just repeating like a broken record at this point...

1. Argument is said.
2. Rebuttal.
3. Pages pass.
4. Same argument is said again.
5. Same rebuttal is said again.

Eventually someone gets tried of repeating themselves, and when it comes to these things, it's the rebuttals that get the short end of the stick because no matter how well the argument is crushed, some idiot comes along a couple posts after and asks the same thing again, believing they're original and expecting a response, when they could just read the thread themselves and find upwards of a dozen responses to the same exact thing they just said.

immortius · Apr 18, 2009, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Empress Amarox

So, tell me... When did someone that disagrees with you suddenly become a "troll?"

Apparently since you stated it, because I most certainly didn't say that. :P Saying that X does Y doesn't imply everyone who does Y is X.

There is no way to determine in absolute terms whether the convenience gained through a storage pane is comparable price-wise to the storage gained via the other options. It is something each person needs to decide for themself, based on their needs/desires. Luckily everyone has a selection of options to choose from, including not purchasing anything at all.

Fril Estelin · Apr 18, 2009, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hell Raiser

I would say it's just a misuse of the word boycott; not buying 1 product from a company because it's "overpriced" is not a boycott, it's how every product works, and if it really is overpriced, like many of you claim, Anet's sales will show it, and they will have to lower the price or lose profits (that's assuming it is overpriced). Just keep in mind that us players don't get to decide what a fair price is for a product, the "market" will do that.

Personally, looking at my two accounts, I think I will be buying 1 or 2 of these panes. I see that my primary's 4 storage panes are packed and have been that way for a while, my primary character's inventory has only 20 open slots, and none of my other characters have anything but their own armor/weapons/books/kits (so none of them are mules). While my secondary account has an almost empty storage (4 panes), no mules, and 4 open char slots. I tried using mules and my secondary account as extra storage, but I couldn't take it. It's so annoying and inconvenient to have to get my second GW client open, log in, get both of them to the same town, open storage, trade with them, and then go back to wherever I was before, just to use a damn tome. So now I just deal with the low storage on my primary and don't even bother trying to use mules. Now at least I will have the option to pay for storage that I'll actually use.

Very, very well said!

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem is Anet doesn't care because people are happily buying the ripoffs they put out.

Funnily (or rather not) the present and future of the company may rely on people buying these products, not people like you directing things one way that suits you (don't try to make us believe that you have our best interest in mind).

Quote:

And what is "good options" to you? If they sold UAX, storage, character slots, vanity items, weapon and armor skins, etc etc in GW2 would that all be ok with you? Hell why not let us buy extra heroes, an auction house, a hairstylist, a name changer, etc etc. Again...where does it end? If they are selling storage, I see no reason why they can't sell everything else.

Your point is purely theoretical. May be you'll come back in a few months/years and say "I told you so". Until then, it's pointless to discuss what may or may not. We have something here that will follow the market rules, you're trying to pin a particular interpretation on it, but it's not how things work.

Furthermore, I don't see how this affect you, apart from maybe you having fun discussing stuff on Guru, which is not what Anet is working for.

upier · Apr 18, 2009, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

He is trying to say it is ok to sell storage but not ok to sell vanity items. I am saying this is ridiculous. I also fail to see how you got "PvPers are superior" out of what I said.

I went after the quoted part.
The part where you categorically denied PvE having a way to measure up against other players (implying that that's reserved for PvP only).
Unless of course you are saying that GW has no component where you can measure up with other players. In which case, I apologize for making an assumption.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

The problem is Anet doesn't care because people are happily buying the ripoffs they put out. And what is "good options" to you? If they sold UAX, storage, character slots, vanity items, weapon and armor skins, etc etc in GW2 would that all be ok with you? Hell why not let us buy extra heroes, an auction house, a hairstylist, a name changer, etc etc. Again...where does it end? If they are selling storage, I see no reason why they can't sell everything else.

Would I prefer if the things in question were offered for free?
Of course.
If they are offered for a price - would I prefer if that price was as low as possible?
Of course.
Do I understand that the same way that I want to save money, A.Net wants to MAKE money?
Of course.
And that is why that I appreciate that if they want/need to sell stuff, it's stuff that really doesn't offer you an advantage.
Well, not really "appreciate". It's more of something that is mandatory - thus by offering something like "only receive loot if you buy an add-on" - wouldn't leave me disgruntled, it would make me quit.

Out of the things you listed - I pretty much only see the auction house as something that should be core. Everything else - it's pretty much just about being pretty, thus I am fine not buying.

And like I said - micro-transactions that would extend beyond pretty/vanity would influence the game's position in the market. And this seems to be something A.Net is aware of.

Bryant Again · Apr 18, 2009, 09:10 AM // 09:10

Is UAX one of those things that make you pretty? Why shouldn't it be core?

DreamWind · Apr 18, 2009, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Funnily (or rather not) the present and future of the company may rely on people buying these products, not people like you directing things one way that suits you (don't try to make us believe that you have our best interest in mind).

Funny how everything was fine in the world, until Anet started pumping out microtransactions and then everybody thought they need that to survive.

And I have all the players interest in mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Your point is purely theoretical. May be you'll come back in a few months/years and say "I told you so". Until then, it's pointless to discuss what may or may not. We have something here that will follow the market rules, you're trying to pin a particular interpretation on it, but it's not how things work.

I have evolved my point. Yes the slippery slope point still stands...but I'm saying if you think selling storage is fine, you have to think selling everything else I mentioned is fine as well. Not everybody is going that far.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The part where you categorically denied PvE having a way to measure up against other players (implying that that's reserved for PvP only).

I suppose it has a way....vanity items and titles. That isn't why I play the game, but I can see how others would play the game for that. Hence I agree vanity items shouldn't be sold in the same way storage shouldn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Out of the things you listed - I pretty much only see the auction house as something that should be core. Everything else - it's pretty much just about being pretty, thus I am fine not buying.

UAX and storage are about being pretty?

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And like I said - micro-transactions that would extend beyond pretty/vanity would influence the game's position in the market. And this seems to be something A.Net is aware of.

If they are aware of it, why are they selling storage?

upier · Apr 18, 2009, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Is UAX one of those things that make you pretty? Why shouldn't it be core?

Like I said, I'd LOVE to have more free stuff. If more things were core - great! I am cheap - so yay!
Regarding UAX:
Players that didn't play GW AT ALL (!) would be the players that would benefit from UAX. If the player is decent, he shouldn't have issues unlocking a few selected option (given the state of the game he should start in) - which, let's be honest, is what UAX is all about.
Bad players will always suck. (Well, they should - but that isn't so much of an UAX issue as it is a balance issue.)

But yeah, UAX is close to being something that should be core, but at the end of the day - while it's not exactly pure "pretty", players won't magically have this insane advantage if they don't know shit about this game BUT have everything unlocked. I mean, if a player unlocks everything though PvE, his playing through PvE will give him a bigger advantage that all the stuff he unlocked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

If they are aware of it, why are they selling storage?

Storage is definitely about pretty.
Look at what you REALLY need in this game, and if that stuff exceeds your available storage space - then you NEED more storage.
If on the other hand - you are just saving crap or pretty things - then you just WANT more storage.
I've played for close to 4 years, have 10 slots and I WANT more storage. (I also have a second account - but that account just further proves my point. I put things there that I KNOW I'll never use - but are just to pretty and to shiny to throw away ...) There is just no way in hell that I NEED it.

Fril Estelin · Apr 18, 2009, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Funny how everything was fine in the world, until Anet started pumping out microtransactions and then everybody thought they need that to survive.

And I have all the players interest in mind.

Not sure I'm catching your drift here.

Quote:

if you think selling storage is fine, you have to think selling everything else I mentioned is fine as well

Another theoretical point. A discussion for another time, another day, IF and only IF things turn out differently.

Bryant Again · Apr 18, 2009, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Players that didn't play GW AT ALL (!) would be the players that would benefit from UAX...

Firstly yes, that's going to be quite a large deterent for newcomers looking to play GW PvP. Secondly, not everyone plays and progresses PvE the same way.

The biggest question is why there should be such a long and broad RPG-like form of progression in the PvP format of the game (i.e. a large investment of time), especially such a progression with many more upgrades than sidegrades.

DreamWind · Apr 18, 2009, 10:45 AM // 10:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

But yeah, UAX is close to being something that should be core

It absolutely should be core and Anet knows it. The only reason they can't give it to us now is because it would be unfair to everybody who already bought the skill packs (or grinded to unlock everything).

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Look at what you REALLY need in this game, and if that stuff exceeds your available storage space - then you NEED more storage.
If on the other hand - you are just saving crap or pretty things - then you just WANT more storage.

Meh...by your strict definition of needs and wants I could argue that everything in the game is a want. We don't need anything in it. I don't see what you are adding to the discussion here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Not sure I'm catching your drift here.

Well there are a lot of posters saying that this is fine because Anet needs the money to survive. I'm claiming that isn't true because they survived just fine before microtransactions and also the recent sales numbers say otherwise. It is simply another money grab at the expense of the players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

Another theoretical point. A discussion for another time, another day, IF and only IF things turn out differently.

Put aside what may or may not happen for a second. I am claiming that the people saying selling storage is fine also have to say that the slippery slope is fine, because buying storage supports the slippery slope actually happening.

Fril Estelin · Apr 18, 2009, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Well there are a lot of posters saying that this is fine because Anet needs the money to survive. I'm claiming that isn't true because they survived just fine before microtransactions and also the recent sales numbers say otherwise. It is simply another money grab at the expense of the players.

I don't see it that way, I see it as giving them what they deserve. They never, ever asked my money via subscriptions, yet they've provided me with 2.5 years of casual fun, with near-monthly updates and weekendly events, and more to come. I think they deserve it, and like I said I hope it'll help make they roadmap to GW2 firmer. I do consider that Activision Blizzard exploits players a lot more than Anet. Furthermore, the players that pay do help those that don't pay, because in the end it helps Anet and whatever Anet offers free is beneficial to everyone, whether you paid or not. Without the people that pay, we may not be where we are.

Quote:

Put aside what may or may not happen for a second. I am claiming that the people saying selling storage is fine also have to say that the slippery slope is fine, because buying storage supports the slippery slope actually happening.

The "slippery slope" is a hypothetical scenario, a mere possiblity, almost on the verge of scaremongering. People mention "trends" without ever being able to prove it. It's because it's more probable that it isn't one, in the sense of dropping the f2p model. The day when they'll be clear evidence of a "heavy" microtransaction (let's not forget that all this terms are boxes which can't capture all business models) business model for GW, I'll be standing right next to you to complain vocally, saying that this is not acceptable and I won't purchase GW2. But I don't see that day coming, I think Anet is trying to steer their boat in the exact same direction, but the economic tide means it requires different action.

DreamWind · Apr 18, 2009, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I don't see it that way, I see it as giving them what they deserve. They never, ever asked my money via subscriptions, yet they've provided me with 2.5years of casual fun, and more to come.

I agree with you in that it justifies future product purchases if you are happy, but I don't think it justifies this. Never asking for subscription money was their promise to us from the beginning. I don't feel we should buy this because they kept their promise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

I do consider that Activision Blizzard exploits players a lot more than Anet.

Activision Blizzard exploits the easily exploitable. Anet is doing the same by selling things that shouldn't be sold. IMO if you purchase it you are exploited.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

People mention "trends" without ever being able to prove it.

I can't see the future, but I see the past (and present)...which is the best predictor of the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

But I don't see that day coming, I think Anet is trying to steer their boat in the exact same direction, but the economic tide means it requires different action.

Yea I suppose. You know Fril I think you have some of the more reasonable posts in favor of this, but I think we will agree to disagree on this just like everything else. You know my position that I prefer Guild Wars the way it used to be, and the reason I don't play it as much now is because all these little changes over time added up to be something I don't like as much anymore.

upier · Apr 18, 2009, 12:05 PM // 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Firstly yes, that's going to be quite a large deterrent for newcomers looking to play GW PvP. Secondly, not everyone plays and progresses PvE the same way.

The biggest question is why there should be such a long and broad RPG-like form of progression in the PvP format of the game (i.e. a large investment of time), especially such a progression with many more upgrades than sidegrades.

You can do PvP from the start. And then if you don't suck - you unlock things as you go.
There is absolutely no need whatsoever to do PvE.

(But then again, if you aren't doing PvE in GW - you are kinda playing the wrong game.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

It absolutely should be core and Anet knows it. The only reason they can't give it to us now is because it would be unfair to everybody who already bought the skill packs (or grinded to unlock everything).

Like I said, I don't see the need for it to be core. Sure, it would be nice - but like it's pointed out pretty much constantly, people win in RA with empty skillbars.
The lack of skills in places, where being non-UAX-ed could be an issue, is overshadowed by the lack of skill in those same places.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Meh...by your strict definition of needs and wants I could argue that everything in the game is a want. We don't need anything in it. I don't see what you are adding to the discussion here.

A.Net owns the game.
If you don't like it - don't play it.
Having ANY kind of discussion on changes that they decide on is thus useless.
Riverside can close up.

Now, if we still want to discuss the issue - I am arguing that I understand that they can't provide everything for free. So, I don't mind them charging money for something that people just want for vanity reasons.
A.Net gets some money and I am not at a disadvantage for not buying it.
Sounds like a win-not lose scenario to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Well there are a lot of posters saying that this is fine because Anet needs the money to survive. I'm claiming that isn't true because they survived just fine before microtransactions and also the recent sales numbers say otherwise. It is simply another money grab at the expense of the players.

Well first of all, the system isn't working.
If it was working - we wouldn't be getting GWEN and GW2.

Second of all, yes, they are taking candy from the babies.
But then again, that's kinda the whole point why they even exist, now isn't it?
I mean, they don't exist to make people happy, now do they?
They exist to get rich or die trying.

What we as conscious consumers can do - is not buy it.
What we are dealing with here is a product. And if the product does not meet the desired criteria any longer - it should fail. Now the issue at hand is that the consumers do not want the product to fail. The issue isn't that the producer is doing what it's designed to do, which is to make money, the issue is that the customers do not like the product and yet they support it.

I will not be purchasing storage. And if this means that A.Net will drop dead because of it - sucks for them I guess.

Crom The Pale · Apr 18, 2009, 12:48 PM // 12:48

I am finding this entire argument quite ludicrous...

We still do not know the EXACT details of what we will be getting in the FREE update yet. The absurdity of people complaining about what a company chooses to sell to its consumers, at a very tiny price point even!

My young nefew blows about $10 every 2 weeks on YuGiOh cards...out of which he might get 0 cards that are of use to him.

Is the price really an issue?
Is extra storage going to have a major impact on gameplay?

As for me personally, once I move all my weapons and armour into the FREE equipment packs I should have 4 empty storge panes.

*shrugs*